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Post by Noelia on Aug 21, 2007 15:16:20 GMT -3
" Western Union charges the same fees and ask less questions"
Yo escribí esto en un email y después de enviarlo me dí cuenta que tenía que ser "asks", si tomo a "Western Union" como un sujeto singular.
Pero me preguntaba, se puede tomar a "Western Union" como un sujeto plural? (THEY ask less questions)
Noelia
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Post by johnr on Aug 21, 2007 17:27:18 GMT -3
Hmmm. Tus preguntas siempre son difíciles para mí.
He preguntado a mi familia y la respuesta es ...
diríamos 'charges' and 'asks'.
Cambia WU por 'it' y tiene más sentido.
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Post by chrisbutler on Aug 21, 2007 23:27:12 GMT -3
Collective nouns can be treated either as singular or plural in English. In strict grammar they are singular, but the usage as a plural is very frequent and is accepted as normal grammar. In fact English speakers often do not notice that they use both. You can say Brazil was better than Argentina in the Copa America or you can say Brazil were better than Argentina in the Copa America. In the example above Western Union is being treated like a collective noun. Again, this is very common - Wal-Mart is vilified for everything it does or Wal-Mart are vilified for everything they do are both normal. However, it is rare to see both uses in the same sentence. I'll come back to that. So which to use ? There is a subtle difference between the two uses. Using the singular emphasises the collective nature of the noun. Using the plural emphasises the individuals within the collection. Brazil was better ... implies that the team was better. Brazil were ... implies that the players were better as individuals. The implication is subtle and usually unconscious. However, in most cases I think the choice of singular or plural has no significance and is unintentional. The Wal-Mart example is interesting, because I think the choice would most often be to use the singular ("Wal mart is vilified ...") since it emphasises the singular, impersonal nature of the company. Back to Western Union. My guess is that they didn't notice that they had used both singular and plural in the same sentence. But, if it was deliberate I think they have it the right way round. " Charges" uses the singular and implies you pay a single, entity - the company. Ask is plural and implies that the (many) people you deal with in Western Union wont be asking lots of questions. If they had used asks it would imply that it is a big, impersonal company that will be asking you questions, not real, warm, friendly, lovable people. However, as I said, I think they didn't mean to be that subtle. What do the English speaker think ? Do you use both ? Do you make an (unconscious) choice to give a subtle meaning or is it 50:50 ? |
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Post by chrisbutler on Aug 21, 2007 23:34:44 GMT -3
Oh, by the way, you can also say: Brazil is always better than Argentina in the Copa America. That is also true.
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Post by sendai on Aug 22, 2007 0:07:32 GMT -3
I would say charges/asks. However, if someone says charge/ask, it doesn't sound too bad. What sounds bad to me is the charges/ask. For me, the verbs have to match or it sounds wrong.
Brazil were better than Argentina in the Copa America.
From what I understand, these kinds of sentences are common in England. They sound weird to this American English speaker. I would never say "were" in that sentence. Ditto for "are" in "Wal-Mart are villified". However, even though I wouldn't say it, it wouldn't sound too bad coming from someone with a foreign but native accent. If a non-native says it, I would probably correct them.
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Post by Noelia on Aug 22, 2007 10:53:50 GMT -3
Gracias. Yo siempre uso los nombres de instituciones como singular, y sin pensarlo hubiera dicho "Western Union asks", fue probablemente un typo o estaba pensando en "they" al momento de escribirlo. Despues cuando lo razoné un poco, pensé que podía no estar mal, pero en realidad, no me gustó mandar el email así.
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Post by Noelia on Aug 22, 2007 10:55:42 GMT -3
Oh and by the way Chris... Brazil might have been better than Argentina in the Copa America (it was a lucky goal, but I'll get you get away with this if that makes your british worldcup frustration feel better) but I'd like to remind you of the many centuries that passed without having the cup in not-so-Great Britain. Brazil or Argentina but it remained in latinamerican soil!
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Post by chrisbutler on Aug 22, 2007 20:54:02 GMT -3
I Googled a little to test the usage here (USA). Definitely the plural usage in less common. For "impersonal' companies like Ford, Exxon, IBM the singular was always used. For more "people oriented" companies like Apple and Disney there was more plural usage - a lot more in the case of Apple.
Sports teams were difficult to test since they are almost all plural (Yankees, Pistons etc. etc.). I did find quite a lot of usage of "Brazil are", but it could be written by non-Americans. However some cases (incl. New York Times and CNN) seemed to me to be written by Americans.
Anyway, since this is not a English-English forum the best advice is to stick with the singular !
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Post by chrisbutler on Aug 22, 2007 20:57:47 GMT -3
¿Cuál gol fue de suerte – su primero, su segundo, su tercero – o los tres?
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Post by chrisbutler on Aug 22, 2007 21:03:19 GMT -3
A propósito, "ask less questions" debe ser "ask fewer questions".
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Post by johnr on Aug 23, 2007 4:21:29 GMT -3
me asombra el nivel (muy bajo) de mi gramática inglés. Quizás Chris debería empezar un clase de gramática inglés para los que la necesiten.
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Post by Noelia on Aug 23, 2007 11:24:30 GMT -3
Todos los goles de Brasil son beginner's luck.
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Post by chrisbutler on Aug 23, 2007 18:08:03 GMT -3
¡Principiantes derrotan Argentina: 3-0!Y sin sus mejores jugadores: Kaka y Ronaldinho  |
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Post by chrisbutler on Aug 23, 2007 18:10:38 GMT -3
For those of you who wonder what provoked the latest outbreakl of football hooliganism, our young friend Noelía might explain the material she chose for my last lesson !
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Post by chrisbutler on Aug 23, 2007 18:29:34 GMT -3
John,
Happy to help on any grammar, but I also suffer from a lack of grammar teaching in British schools that (or is it which ?) I assume you suffered. I only learned English grammar when I was learning French and German. As you can see, I do enjoy learning the grammar when questions come up.
I am constantly in awe of those, like Noelia, who understand properly the grammar of their own language. I don't (yet).
By the way, you use fewer for nouns that you can count and less if you can't count them. The rule is broken almost more often than it is obeyed with the result that 'fewer' is used less and less (or fewer and fewer times !). This (and other reasons) is why some dictionaries (e.g Oxford Spanish-English) show whether English nouns are countable or not. More fundamentaly, you use numbers and a/an only with countable nouns and singular countable nouns always require a determiner (the, my, some, a etc. etc).
I will be so embarassed if any of the Spanish speakers correct my English grammar !!!
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