Did the americans really land on the moon?

[Noelia]

www.talkarama.com/article15.html?d9926ece768efdb2fbb8ab1aa8950026=77474886c859a6f4725356113eeb23bd#comments


OPINIONS! I want to read opinions from all members here! hahhaa

[sendai]

4) There could not be seen neither stars nor the Earth in the video when they were supposed to have landed. They say that luminosity is BAD on the moon. This is specially a LIE for dummies, not for people with an Universitary degree.

The objections are so silly that they are laughable. For example, the one above. Stars are way to dim to show up on the best quality modern films in a photo properly exposed to show people in sunlight or even moonlight. Video has even lower dynamic range than film, and the video from 40 years ago even less I'm sure. Have any of you ever had a star show up in a picture taken at night? I haven't.

Not only that, but the video they used on the moon was very low resolution (320x200 or something like that). At that resolution, you wouldn't be able to see a star even with modern equipment.

In 1969, there were no electronic devices capable of sending the amount of information required to send a video signal from the moon. Remember that even in the early ´90s the modems were capable of sending 300 baud(bits per second) only. Again , this is imposible to achieve. In electronics there is no magic at all.

True, it would have been impossible to send a digital video signal even of very low resolution in 1969. But they didn't use digital transmission, they used analog transmission, which already a highly developed technology by then. (Think television.)

[johnr]

Y por lo mismo criterio quizás George W Bush no sea real. Quizás sea una ilusión óptica. Esto es más probable que no hubiera sido una aterrizaje en la luna.

[Noelia]

I haven't decided yet if it's true or not. Most of those who live outside the US would agree that it is very american goverment-like to invent something like this to show power and technological advance. It's VERY very strange that no other technologically advanced countries such as Japan and Russia (and others) could ever go to the moon. And even more strange that the US itself couldnt do it again. All other attempts to travel to the moon failed.

[Robie]

La cuestión en este hilo no es de qué pienso yo sino es una cuestión de que sé yo.

El hecho es que entre julio 1969 y diciembre 1972, hubo seis alunizajes tripulados por los Estados Unidos. Durante los misiones, los hallazgos prueben suficientemente que no hay ningún razón para regresar a la luna y solo por eso, hemos parado ir a la luna. Pero mientras estaban allí, los científicos sí levantaron la bandera de los Estados Unidos y eso es un hecho probado por cualquiera que tiene telescopio básico en su patio trasero.

Por supuesto no hay ninguna estrella titilando por que no hay atmósfera lunar. En la tierra cuando la atmósfera revuelva, la luz de las estrellas van en todas direcciones y causa que la imagen de las estrellas cambie un poco. Eso es lo que llamamos 'titilar'. Sin aire en la luna, las estrellas no nos parecen lo mismo que en la tierra. (Los niños de la luna no cantan 'Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star' )

Por supuesto la bandera no puede ondear en el viento porque si no hay atmósfera, tampoco no hay viento. Pero hay solo un sexto de la gravedad en la luna que en la tierra. Por eso la bandera no va a estar floja tampoco. Es como cuando buceo con flotabilidad neutra. No floto ni me hundo.

¿Por qué no pueden Rusia ni Japón ir a la luna? Me imagino que sea porque después de intentar unas veces sin éxito y por causa de todo que aprendimos de la luna, no vale la pena ir. Los misiones cuestan un montón y los otros países avanzados tecnológicamente también se dieron cuenta que es una inversión mala y acabaron intentar de hacerlo. ¿No creen?

Ahora, el gobierno de mi país financia la investigación científica en la estación espacial internacional. Es para el beneficio de todo el mundo – para los que nos odian y para los que nos aprecian - y yo soy una persona orgulla de las contribuciones para el mundo aún si estamos odiados. Compartimos los experimentos con la gente de los países como Rusia y Japón y cada vez que un aparato de los otros países dejar de funcionar, generalmente es la gente de los Estados Unidos que lo repara.

Me molesta el hecho que cada vez los norteamericanos hacen algo tan importante que ha beneficiado todo el mundo (literalmente) mucha gente quiere creer algo lo contrario. O ellos desean creer en una conspiración. ¿Por qué es tan imposible pensar en cosas buenas y creer de vez en cuando en lo bueno de humanidad? A mi me gustaría si la gente buscaría hechos antes de que le eche la culpa en el gobierno de mi país. Me parece que Estados Unidos es el país lo más odiado en el mundo y también es el país adonde la gente de otros países quiere ir. ¿Por qué? ¿Quizás no sea odio sino miedo o envidia? Seguro que hay muchas razones.

[johnr]

Este es un tema muy polémico, o sea. las relaciones entre EEUU y otros paises del mundo y por eso hay que tener cuidado en lo que se dice. Como decimos en inglés 'it's a can of worms'. (¿Hay una traducción adequeda para esta frase?

Creo que realmente es una mezcla de cosas y como ya nos has dicho, celos, envidia, odio etc, hay que recordar que sin ninguna duda Los EEUU es el país más poderoso en el mundo y tiene una riqueza que los demás solo pueden sueñar con y por eso existe la envidia.

Una pregunta sobre 'ha beneficiado todo el mundo', y no me estoy quejando sobre el gobierno de EEUU, pero en concreto, ¿cómo ha beneficiado todo el mundo por el presunto aterrizaje en la luna. Creía que trataba de una 'carrera a la lune' entre EEUU y Rusia, y nada más.

Creo que tienes razón en que los otros gobiernos deberían haber pensado que no valía la pena tratar de ir a la luna.

Desde el punto de vista de los otros paises creo que lo que ha pasado en cuanto a los EEUU es hasta hace poco, EEUU realmente hacía cosas buenas pero el mundo ha cambiado y parece que EEUU no quiere cambiar. Aquí en Europa, hay dos cosas que destacan.

La guerra en Iraq (y aquí los inglesas tienen la culpa también) y la emissones de gases invernadero. Estas cosas no han hecho nada para 'el beneficio de todo el mundo'.

[Robie]

John,

Noelia knows I hate politics and even more so I hate talking about it because I'm someone who needs to know both sides of any topic before I have an opinion. And for the most part, I bury my head in the sand and the world keeps on doing what it's doing without me.

However, I travel internationally enough to know that the US isn't loved by all for lots of different reason and that bothers me because it's like having a parent who's not perfect and all the kids make fun of them or say mean things and you feel like you have to defend them all the time. And what's really sad for me is that people tend only to talk about the perceived bad things that "my dad" does and never hears (or choose not to listen) to the good things. Putting into a perspective that I can understand (and I know what I'm going to say is understating it and I'm not saying 'dad'= 'USA' but it'a a perspective on good vs. evil in a fantasy to which I personally can relate since I can't relate to international politics), it's like Dad's in a bar brawl defending mom because someone said they were going to do something mean to her. Maybe he knows all the facts and maybe he doesn't but he acts on his instincts and his internal belief system and does what he believes to be right. Right or wrong. People will talk about that bar fight for years but what you won't hear them talking about is that time when they called him in the middle of the night because they had a flat tire on the highway in the middle of nowhere and he came to fix their flat - even though he had to work the next day, even though he had to drive 3 hours each way to get to you and even though you secretly hated his guts and it was your kids who poisoned our dog last year and and he even knew it.

And it's not only outside the US. There are a lot of things inside that I despise, too. For instance, when I go to India and see the living conditions there - the condition of their roads, the people living with barely a roof over their heads, the children digging in the same garbage on the ground as the cows, the repression of the women in the culture in general and in particular the women of certain religous groups, etc - and then I return home and hear an American who's never left his home town tell me how America sucks. It's like they don't even have a clue what they are saying because they have only one point of view, they don't know the issues any better than I do but they choose to blame someone else (our government in this case) for their unhappiness or for doing something that the media tells them is bad from only one point of view.

As far as how has the lunar landings benefitted everyone - it's not about the landings themselves, of course, but it's about the research that was done while on the moon and the data that was collected. The trips to the moon are only one fraction of our overall space program run by NASA and the overall program is what's benefitting "todo el mundo" (I love that phrase). For instance, the research from the space program has helped in the development of composite metals such as titanium. Now, 90% (or so) of the budget for the International Space Station and it's research comes from "dad" with the sole purpose of learning more about how we humans from all countries could possibly live someday on the moon. (Wow I feel a lot of subjunctives in that sentence if I'd chosen to write in spanish) We know (believe) that the moon would be a more reasonable living environment than outer space (where the ISS is today) because it DOES have gravity even though it's not the same as on earth. It's possible that you and I (and Noelia and Paul and Thais) will never see someone actually live on a lunar base in our lifetime but it's a program intended for the betterment and benefit of ALL mankind. Maybe the result is that we never will be able to figure out how to live on the moon or outer space but maybe we'll find a cure for cancer or diabetes or Aids or meanness or stupidity or any other known or yet to be known maladies of this world. I'm sure there are other concrete examples that I can't provide directly because, as I've already said, I don't keep up with this stuff but I have friends who could give me more details if you want me to give you some more examples.

What I truly believe is that my country is a very giving country and we don't typically do things that simply benefits our population. We care about the british, the argentinians, the brazilians and the iraquis and we want to make everyone's future better. Are we perfect? No, I certainly don't believe that either. When we go into war, it's because we believe we need to be there. I choose to believe that the war is a necessary evil and that we went there for a purpose and now isn't the right time to back out. Do I wish we weren't there? Sure. I pray every night for world peace just like you do. Maybe the next debate should be about "why doesn't God listen".

I am fortunate because I hang around some people who grew up around the military and I can get a perspective on things like this that isn't shared in the public media. I learn a lot of facts from them over dinner - more than I can learn from the media who wants to only report the bad and evil. I learn both the good and the bad - when I want to.

Oh...and for Noelia - one other point re: the russian space program and their lack of success in landing on the moon. As my very intelligent friends just pointed out to me - the success of the Americans vs. the Russians has a lot to do with the fact that solid state technology had just come out and we adopted it quicker than the Russians. Before that, the technology was based on the vacuum tubes like in the first TV's and now our electronics was based on the micro-chip. Those tubes can't hold up to the drastic changes in atmospheric pressure. The russians used the older technology thru the 1970's and by that time, we had already been to the moon how many times? Oh yeah, six.

What's my point? There are many sides to the story and I choose to focus on the bright side. Nobody and no nation is all good nor are they all bad all of the time. And thinking about these things and writing about them has now cost me way too much time.

Now, John, I have one question for you which I promise I will not respond to. I am curious to know what you know for an absolute fact about "la emissones de gases invernadero". As I understand it, we have records for only the last 100 years out of the billions of years that we believe the earth has existed. And those records now are being taken as absolute proof that not only is the temperature rising (and hasn't it been rising for eons and that's why we're here instead of the ice from the ice age) but also that it's man who's causing it to rise? The flip side of that coin is that natural events such as the volcanic erruptions of Mount St Helens in Washington puts more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere than all of the gases put out by mankind in our history. Not only an American volcano but volcanos from all areas of the world (didn't want us to take all the blame on that one either ) IF my friends are so smart and IF this is true, then why do we feel so strongly that mankind is going to destroy the world vs. perhaps it's just part of the natural evolution of our planet? I personally have no solid opinion on the subject but know it's a big global concern that I do not understand. To me, though, 100 years of records over such a long, long history doesn't prove a trend one way or the other. But I know that I don't know the answer. It just seems like we've recorded an increase in temperature for an equivalence of 1 second from an entire year and then made a general statment that says "we're doomed if we don't ........(fill in the blank)". This is me again oversimplifying so I can understand the perspective.

[Noelia]

I have a longggggggg paragraph so I'll have to split it in 2 parts:

I think this topic has gone far beyond it was supposed to go, but hey, debate is always welcome, especially if we do it in another language.
So, what I’m going to expose here, is my very personal opinion, and, although I think this is what most people in latinamerica feels about the US.

I should start by saying that I strongly believe everybody has a price. Although it’s embarrassing and not politically correct, it’s the truth no matter what you hear. We can’t all be Ghandi or Mother Teresa of Calcuta.

So, we have to divide our life in two parts: 1) What we think and 2) What we like.
It is true that the US does many good things, but it is also true that they do very bad things. Being at the top means having an active participation in both sides of that line. We hear news about the US all the time, but how many news do we hear about Russia, Canada, England, Argentina in other countries within one month?

Now, we have to admit that most people in the US live with luxuries other people in the world can only dream about. People travel abroad a lot, have more than one car, nice houses, electronics, etc. And that does genereate some envy to other countries. We can’t be naïve enough to think that americans have become that rich because they have found the cure to AIDS or because they already know what’s in the lunar soil. They became that rich by exploiting less powerful countries. And, the law of the jungle will prevail forever because that’s how it is supposed to be. Equality, I believe, it’s a dream of human reasoning, but seems not to be practical, and nature, much wiser than us, keeps showing us how life works: The stronger easts the weaker so the stronger prevails and there’s no weakness in the world.

The only problem is, that weaker countries do not learn from their mistakes nor do they team up to climb to the top, and by themselves, they’re always going to be weak.

But that’s all about countries in general. Let’s go back to personal opinions. I like the US very much, and I hate the US very much. Although it sounds like it, it’s not contradictory at all. Because I’ll also say that I love Argentina very much and I hate Argentina very much. And it’s just that it’s not possible to agree with the 37 million people that live here. But some things of my culture I love, and some things I hate, and so it happens with the americans.

[Noelia]

There’s evil in the world, much more than there’s goodness. And here in Argentina, we know better than anyone else in the world, how people can be tricked and lied to by the government, the media, the biggest companies. And when the Irak war happened, we saw things in our media that no american has seen. When we said their media was censored, they didn’t even want to stop and think “hmmm let’s be careful, they might be right and Bush might be doing wrong things”, no, because they are too pride proud to admit their government can be wrong and the poor countries around the world were right.

Later it was proved that Bush did not obey United Nations. What was the public reaction? “.. Well United Nations is worthless” Really? It was the Americans that created the United Nations and it was worth when we were punished for Malvinas….
So we have this uncomfortable feeling that rules are put into practice only for those without power to object. And that, really makes us mad, and we’re all in good right to be, I think.
Within this scenario, we still find people from other countries who want to live and work in the US. And rightfully enough, the americans are pissed.

But, as I said before, we all have a price and we all have our ideas. Only few people in the world can live their lives with both of them. For the rest of us, we also feel we have the right to access the luxuries we can’t afford in our countries, and, if that means being part of a society we don’t agree with, so be it, there’s no other choice except poverty awaiting us at home.-

I admit I am always the first one to criticize the US. But those who know me, can’t say that I’ve never criticized Argentina too. Just as they can’t say I don’t love my country because I do and I’ve shown it many times. We should learn to see what critics are helpful and what critics are just for the sake to attack. This goes for all the countries in the world. Because people should not be supporting their governments blindly, but should take advantage of the new media systems we have (such as internet) to see themselves through somebody else’s eyes.

(how was that for an ending line!)

[johnr]

Robie,

Aunque no lo creas, tampoco me gusta pelear pero hay que decir ciertas cosas.

1. las emissiones de gases. Lo que no les gusta los otros paises del muno (pues, la mayoría de ellos) es que siempre vemos a EEUU como el líder en el mundo y entonces los científicos nos dijeron que tenemos un problema en el mundo, y eso le llamaron 'calentamiento global. Además, en parte es debido a los gases invernadero'. Realmente estoy de acuerdo contigo en que no tenemos pruebas suficientes para decir sí, es la fuente del problema, pero parece que hoy día sea lo más probable. Por lo menos según lo que dicen los científicos.

Lo que molesta a los demás es que EEUU se negó a firmar el protocolo Kyoto, a pesar de ser el país que produce más de estas gases que algún (ningún?) otro país y siendo el país con más influencía en el mundo. El gobierno dijo que se negó a firmarlo porque creía que por firmarlo, le haría dano a su economía. Qué líder es esto!

Pues basta por ahora.