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Post by chrisbutler on Sept 17, 2007 11:23:09 GMT -3
England 6 - Argentina 1
(Copa Mundial - Mujeres) No team from a Hispanic country has got past the initial, group, stages in the Women's World Cup - ever ! The Cup has always been won by European/North American countries, but Asian countries have got to the final and African counties and Brazil also do well. The same pattern is seen in the women's European competitions (for both club and country). Spain suck, but Italy are OK. Obviously this is very different to the picture in men's football. Why is this ? |
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Post by johnr on Sept 18, 2007 10:09:10 GMT -3
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Post by chrisbutler on Sept 18, 2007 13:38:05 GMT -3
Como se dice en ingles, esta un actitud "antediluvian" ?
Only joking - couldn't ressit the awful pun. You should see what the Argentian men are saying on their message boards - makes Alf Garnett look like a "new man".
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Post by chrisbutler on Sept 18, 2007 19:09:58 GMT -3
Una muestra de la discusion mencionado antes: Para todos los que sugieren que estas chicas dejen de jugar al futbol y se vayan a lavar los platos... quizas sea mejor que dejen el futbol y se dediquen a otra cosa, pero por que no puede ser estudiar, ir a la universidad, convertirse en ingenieras, medicas, arquitectas, contadoras, o animadores ... no... a ustedes con su panzota de cerveza solo se les ocurre que vayan a lavar los platos, cocinar... que machistas horribles que son ustedes!! ¡Bien dicho! PD: ¿Qué significa "panzota de cerveza"? |
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Post by johnr on Sept 19, 2007 5:19:01 GMT -3
creo que 'panzota de cerveza' = beer belly.
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Post by chrisbutler on Sept 27, 2007 13:53:45 GMT -3
I understand all of that, but that is more or less true of most countries. In Japan, who do well at football, there is an even more limited and defined role for women. Brazil and Italy do OK (well in Brazil's case), and they are also Catholic countries. There seems to be something specific about Hispanic culture that is different to other countries and I genuinely don't have a sense of what it is
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Post by Robie on Sept 27, 2007 19:55:09 GMT -3
Aunque Noelia me pidio que me adhera con ella en este asunto como amigas, no puedo.  No tengo ningun idea porque las mujeres juegan futbol tan malo. La verdad es que, aun me duele mucho decir tal cosa, es posible que las latinas estén así. No por causa de sus habilidades pero por causa de sus obligaciones de vida. No estoy de acuerdo con ella sobre el hecho que tendemos mejor hacia las actividades cerebrales que los hombres. Ni que los hombres tenden mejor hacia las actividades fisicas que las mujeres. Sí, es la verdad que los hombres son más fuertes que las mujeres y seguramente cuando un hombre y una mujer tienen una competición fisica, muchas veces si la mujer gana, es por causa de su inteligencia para sobrevirir en ese partido. Pero, cuando dos mujeres o dos equipos de mujeres compiten contra otra/o, es diferente. Todas tienen inteligencia y tienen tendencias fisicas al mismo tiempo. También, conozco a muchos hombres que son inteligentes y son deportistas. Yo crecí como una veronera (yuk, tomboy sounds better). Siempre estaba haciendo cosas fisicas como practicar softball, vóleibol, o golf; andar una bicicleta; escalar los árboles, etc. Trabajaba como umpire por muchos años y competí en el equipo universitario. Ganemos 4 titulos de campeones nacionales de las universidades de tamanos similares. ¿Parece que tenemos nosotras solo tendencias de ser intelegentes y no deportistas? Es verdad que hoy, no compito como competía cuando era más joven, pero aún así, no importa. Noelia sabe que prefiero ir afuera y caminar por la ciudad cuando estoy acá en Buenos Aires. O cuando estoy en casa, prefiero cortar el pasto o andar por motocicleta que limpiar la casa o hacer cosas adentro. No compito hoy, pero me mentengo en forma (bueno, como alguien de mi edad) por las actividades de bucear, bailar, etc. Por lo general, creo que las mujeres del mundo tienen las tendencias de competición como los hombres. Pero también tienen que atender a los niños y la casa, etc. Sin embargo, no es que las mujeres no tenden hacia cosas fisicas. Opino que es más que tienen que transigir en sus vidas y hacer cosas que no quieren hacer particularmente. Pero, también los hombres transigen. Y con una pareja bien balanzada, los dos pueden ser feliz. Bueno....mis 2 cents (USA), 1 rupee (India), 6 centavos (Argentina), 1 pense (UK). Cómo quieran contar el valor de mis comentarios. |
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Post by Noelia on Sept 29, 2007 12:33:38 GMT -3
I'm sorry Robie but you're wrong and I'm right, like always. From the beginning of times, back at the stone age and the cave men, it was men who went out to hunt dinosaurs while women stayed at home taking care of the children. From those first homo sapiens till the modern human being of the 70's the role of women has been pretty much the same. Men went to work and women stayed at home. Rich families in the 1800's had their men gone to war and/or work while their women stayed at home learning piano, french, sewing...
Then, in the late 60's that began to change. This struggle to equality will take years, since we have to undo centuries of wrong conceptions in the minds of many women and men.
For this reason, men have been always more physical. Back in the stone age there were no offices and not everybody worked in one in the past. Most jobs, and wars, required physical activity.
It's because of this that men have bigger and stronger bodies. They have evolved that way. Centuries from now, that will change. With the industrial revolution in which machines replaced most manpowered works, men's physical performance has decreased. However, if you pay attention, it's always men who are expected to be physical: a gentleman will always hold the door for the lady, carry her bags, step out of the car to open your door.
Also, if you have to move the washer from one part of the house to the other, or move the sofa to sweep under it, it's usually men who are expected to do this too.
While all this is considered a mere courteous and elegant behavior, the physical thing is still there. I can't imagine a girl that cannot lift the sofa, yet most prefer the "help" of a gentleman.
So, it's normal for men to be more physical than women. I don't say that's how it has to be, I'm just saying that this is what we have so far, and luckily enough, we're trying to change it. More women participate in rough sports, such as martial arts and football and although we can't beat the guys' teams, we have at least started to change the pattern.
And replying to Chris... latinamerica is also changing into more gender-equality societies, but, the change is slow. Much more slowly than anglosaxon and germanic societies. We have a bunch of indigenous population that do not help in embracing new customs and the little changes we experiences, from my point of view, are from the european descent in latinamerica, who, conveniently enough, happen to be the most educated part of the society.
A couple of hundred years from now, many things will change, physically and psychologically *IF* we still have our race and/or our planet alive to see it.
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Post by Robie on Sept 29, 2007 12:51:20 GMT -3
Bueno. Tenemos opiniones contradictorias y creo que es porque la cultura de los latinoamicanos es mala y las culturas de eeuu y gran bretaña son mejores. Tenemos igualidad en todo....bueno hasta que los mexicanos con su cultura de América Latina cambian todo en eeuu.
(Noten: Es un chiste. No odio a los mexicanos y no soy racista. Hemos peleado toda la semana sobre las culturas diferentes y eso es sola para continuar la lucha. Porque, por supuesto, mi cultura es mejor).
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Post by chrisbutler on Oct 6, 2007 7:04:56 GMT -3
The thing is that the World Cup is women versus women, NOT women versus men. Whatever ones views on physical ability and gender my question was about differences between women (and implicitly culture) from different countries and not about women versus men.
As I said before, Japan is a society with much stronger traditional roles for women and yet they do well at football. Brasil is right next to Argentina (and, in my experience, has more traditional view of the role of women than Argentina - at least among Noelia's generation) and yet they got to the final.
The trend for Hispanic counties to stink at womens' football (even in comparison to other South American, other catholic or other 'traditional'/'transitional' societies) is very clear through many, many years and it is noticeable that it seems to apply to Spain as well as Latin America. I have no idea why it is so. I am really interested in understanding it.
Any other thoughts ?
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No tengo ningun idea porque las mujeres juegan futbol tan malo. La verdad es que, aun me duele mucho decir tal cosa, es posible que las latinas estén así. No por causa de sus habilidades pero por causa de sus obligaciones de vida.